Cruce Saunders
Welcome to Towards a Smarter World. This is your host, Cruce Saunders, and I'm pleased to be joined today by Joyce Peralta, who's the Digital Communications Manager at McGill University.
She's been leading digital content creation for 20 years and has over a decade of experience in higher education. And she's worked with the
University of Victoria,
Western University,
King's University College, and now at
McGill.
She's consolidated at McGill over a thousand websites onto a centrally supported CMS and has over 1500 stakeholders working on the CMS plus separate 500 sites that are managed independently. So it's a big, busy ecosystem. And for those of us in the enterprise, you're all familiar with lots of things happening across lots of departments and lots of places. Universities really face this in a huge way.
And Joyce has seen the beast, confronted it and actually tamed it, tamed the dragon at least a little bit and has made a lot of progress that I think will inspire a lot of folks. I saw Joyce speaking. She's an accomplished speaker, amazing, who has presented at
CMS Connect,
DrupalCon,
ConFoo,
High Ed Web and others. And so today we're going to focus on her experience with digital standards, governance and user experience and how to get all the parts of the clock, the digital CMS clock that is ticking away, working behind the scenes in order to present web experiences across all of these websites. So welcome, Joyce.
Joyce Peralta
Thanks, Cruce. Thanks for the great introduction. I feel like we've accomplished a lot at McGill. I really appreciate all of the accolades you attached. I'm not the only person that's responsible for getting all of our sites into our central governance processes and onto our centrally supported CMS. I feel very lucky to be part of a really amazing team, part of the success or successes that we work well together. And I think our tools and platforms facilitates that collaboration for us too. So yeah, I just wanted to send a shout out to all my teammates. We're a small team, but there are other people involved.
Cruce Saunders
Well, absolutely. Yeah, team is really the only way to make the web work at all. And as we are proliferating into channels and all kinds of aspects of digital experience, there's more and more teamwork needed. Because there's more and more skill sets and more and more kinds of stakeholders on every aspect of the digital lifecycle. So it's very much a team process and it takes a kind of center of gravity to help to catalyze teamwork. And so of course it's absolutely appropriate to bring everybody into that lens. And that's where I'd love to start actually is how does that lens get formed? That team that is actually creating a centralized function for digital operations. When before the university had a thousand websites going in a thousand directions. And now you need to build a community of practice, you need to build a centralized approach to content management and different teams and departments have to work together and share
standards and practices. So how did you get that going? Right. This is a, this is a big hill to climb. So where, where did you start? How did you get ready for your journey?
Joyce Peralta
So I think that moment of initial inspiration for us was that we had hit rock bottom. basically, things were so bad and they couldn't really get any worse. We were in the middle of migration, the migration to
Drupal 7 from Drupal 6. And as usually happens in a migration project, it wasn't going very well. You know, we put a freeze on releasing new features, so that didn't make our community very happy. The migration itself wasn't happening, and there was a lot of unhappiness in terms of what has become now our unified web team. So there was a lot of finger pointing and people trying to, I think, push blame off onto other people in terms of why things weren't going well.
It was so bad that an external provider was brought in to kind of help us come up with a plan to move forward. And the proposal was made to split our web environment into two, which would have resulted in a doubling of our infrastructure and our dev teams and all the resources that support our web service. And thankfully, instead of doing that, we launched a project to revamp our centrally supported CMS and the service that was attached to it. But doing that also gave us an opportunity to look at all the methodology and process that was attached to our web service. And that's where we started to think about, okay, how can we as a university and as a web network, a large web network, get to a point where we're sharing a common understanding and a common, I think, commitment, having a common commitment to what makes a good website. And that's when we started to work together to really define what our standards are in terms of what we believe makes a good website. It helped us to be coordinated in terms of providing our central services, but it also gave our community, I think, a better understanding of what we were expecting from them in the building of their websites.
So it's evolved now into a community of practice, but what it was in the beginning was us really needing to kind of pull our socks up and make sure that we had a unified front in terms of everybody sharing an understanding of what it was we were trying to do when we were building websites. And that was because we were about to tear everything apart.
Cruce Saunders
Yeah. So It's, it's very difficult though, without some kind of senior sponsorship to kind of be able to rally everybody's attention because, you know, especially in department led initiatives where there's lots of people who are reporting into their own individual departments. you've got, you know, a coalition you're trying to create of attention. a crisis helps to get everybody looking in the same place, but then how do get everybody going in the same direction? Is there common sponsorship and senior staff that's helping to kind of show the way? Or how did that catalyze?
Joyce Peralta
So that event did coincide with a lot of new leadership coming on board. And the leadership who came on board at that time were interested in us working cross -departmentally and collaboratively. So that was definitely very helpful in terms of taking this step together and everybody being able to work together in a cohesive and positive way.
But there was also, think, in terms of getting that leadership to see the vision, the shared vision, I think part of what was appreciated at the beginning was that we weren't trying to just create best practices and requirements and policies in an isolated way. We looked to collaborate with others right from the beginning so that everybody who was going to be impacted by the work that we were doing creating our standards, or everybody who was owning policies that were related to our standards were involved in the conversation. So there was an openness from the beginning for people to work with us. Partially because up until this point, I think a lot of our policies and best practices for websites, the collection of those documents was so disorganized that it had obscured a lot of our policies and best practices. It wasn't easy for people to know about what are all the things that they need to know to build a good website. So in doing this project and in trying to make our best practices and policies more digestible and visible, we were actually helping a lot of other departments across the university. So it was that community effort, I think, that helped.
Cruce Saunders
Okay. So I'm hearing there was a of a top -down guiding light of a mandate towards unity, working across departments, working in a way that would eventually make things more coherent and cohesive across the university. So there was senior support, but there wasn't, I think the team, sounding like there wasn't a top -down, okay, so here's how we're gonna do it. These are the standards, you know. take them and run with them because this is how it's going to be. It sounded more like, OK, we're going to move towards a unification project. We're going to create unity out of disorder, some sort of harmony. And we're going to do that with everybody's input. So let's create a process by which everybody can be included. I'm curious how that how that went and where the sort of friction points came up and how those sort of where the disputes came up, how those were resolved so that the momentum within that community could continue.
Joyce Peralta
So there has been, when we initially launched the project to create our revamped governance framework and our standards, there wasn't a lot of resistance because I think people couldn't see what we were trying to put in place. And also because I think that, you know, there was this understanding that we really didn't have anything in its place to begin with. So there was I think if anything, there was maybe a lack of interest and maybe a lack of belief that there would be any effect, that we were just creating another document on top of all the other documentation and that maybe this effort would be perhaps wasted. So there was that to get over when we initially launched the digital standards and the scope of them in the beginning was quite small. We were really only looking to affect the websites on our centrally supported content management system. So I think at the beginning there was a lot of education and outreach that we needed to do to raise awareness of our digital standards. There was a lot of training we needed to do to get people familiar with our digital standards. And I think that that was probably the biggest that we were looking to jump over was just to make sure that people were aware. It was a little easy for us because we introduced at the same time a user access agreement. When we started to put our governance framework in place, we introduced an agreement form that audience members were required. If people were creating content or building new websites, they were required to fill out this form and in filling out the form, they're confirming that yes, they're aware of our standards and they're confirming that they're going to align with the standards. So that was something they needed to do in order to gain access to work in our systems and to have the support from leadership to be able to put something like that into place, I think really kind of pushed the visibility of our standards forward a great deal. And it allowed us after the fact to put mechanisms into place to follow up if there are difficulties or problems with alignment with our standards because people have signed this agreement form which allows us to go back to them and say, hey, you know, this is not good on your website right now. You've signed this agreement form saying that you're going to align with the standards or you're possibly going to lose access to the system. So that's kind of helpful. Let's go.
Cruce Saunders
Okay, so, so this is a holistic picture that's really helping. So there's an inspiration, which is a common goal. And everybody recognized an opportunity to address missing standards that really people needed in order to function. So there was, there wasn't resistance against that idea of, we need something, but there was apathy. And so it sounds like education helped and, and, and sort of selling it into to the teams helped to overcome the apathy. And then the other side was the adherence, which is, okay, so now we've got a framework, now we're gonna agree to use it. And if we don't, there's gonna be a consequence, which is a lack of access to the system. Basically, if you're gonna participate, you need to be able to follow the process that we're all agreeing to.
Joyce Peralta
That's right. That's one level of the, I guess, the that you could potentially encounter if you don't align with the standards. So we've put a process in place for dealing with compliance problems. And the process was actually established by our Web Advisory Committee, which is formed of people in our community who represent different groups. We have students on the committee, we have faculty members, we have researchers, we have staff members, and they're all people that work in our websites. And when we ask them to come up with a process for dealing with compliance challenges, they put together this multiple tiered process where one of the stages is if you don't align with the standards, then you could lose access. The first stage is just to inform the department that there's a problem and it needs to be addressed and there's a timeframe given. If they don't align or they don't fix the issue, then the next phase is to make them redo the training that they're required to do. And then the third phase after that is the possibility of them losing access to the system. So it's not this quick, this now or you're gonna lose access. There's actually a lead up to that where they're given time to address the issue.
Cruce Saunders
Okay, so there really is, there's education plus framework plus governance and an actual process for handling exceptions, which is really important. We see a lot of things break down in organizations where the frameworks or the guidelines or the standards are published to the SharePoint Drive or to the Confluence space and you know, then you sort of wish that things would adhere to it and and and that's about it is you know, a lot of Ignoring it that ends up happening. So you've found a way past that has it been difficult or has it smoothed out or what was it like kind of getting a system in place and getting it into operation across a thousand sites?
Joyce Peralta
I think the important thing about that method, the process for dealing with compliance challenges is that it was created by, it was peer generated. So it's not us coming down with this is the penalties if you don't follow through. It's the peer group in the community, other people who are producing sites that are saying, hey, when I create my site, I'm held to this standard. And if you're not going to hold up your end, then this is what you're going to deal with if there's a problem. So in that sense, I think that it's more palatable for people because it's coming from other people in the community who share the same responsibilities. And interestingly, I thought it was neat that the advisory committee came up with a penalty structure that was actually more severe than we would have when we were initially contemplating. I don't think we considered the idea of taking people's access away or potentially unpublishing people's websites, but they built that into what they felt was a reasonable structure for this process for dealing with compliance challenges. yeah, kind of facilitating a mechanism for community self -governance, which I think is a good way to do it if you're gonna consider taking people's content away.
Cruce Saunders
Yeah, when we've worked with organizations on creating content services organizations, which is a sort of centralized function of helping to manage strategy engineering and operations, one of the things that we talk about is a need to facilitate listening back in from the groups. And sounds like that's very much something that you've instituted as a way to you know, this larger committee which is informing the process itself and reviewing, you know, the compliance challenges as they're coming through. There's a question of how to balance, I think every organization deals with this question, how to balance the centralization and the autonomy in the department, the ability for them to take action without everything having to go through central control so that they can be nimble and responsive to their markets, especially in the enterprise where there is lots of departments in lots of countries around the world and they're all having to operate on different time zones and they're trying to get things done, a lot of times people will stand up their own websites and do totally separate things in order to avoid having to go through a system that's too controlling at the center. So there's this balance between the center and the edge. And I'm curious how you've remained nimble and allowed the departments as much flexibility as possible while adhering to standards.
Joyce Peralta
Mm I mean, there's a number of things I could say there. One thing I'll say is part of the reason why we have 500 custom sites that aren't honor -centrally supported CMS is that people were looking for ways to subvert adhering to our digital standards. So part of our recent efforts to improve alignment with our standards is to communicate with those folks that, just because you're in a custom -built website doesn't mean you don't have to align with our standards. You're just independently responsible for making sure you align with our standards. So yeah, that's one side of that discussion. But in terms of allowing people to have that nimbleness and to have that unique voice, I don't think our standards are designed to control the voice that people have or to make them conform to the way we're saying to do things in terms of how their content, what their content should say, or the way that it should be formatted. , that you're not making decisions that are arbitrary and based on assumption. So our standards don't say, is how you have to format your content.
Well, they do, but they say to format and create content in a user -focused way. So I think that it's more facilitating the ability for our audience or for our site managers and content creators to be creative within an understanding of what's going to work for their users. So I don't know if that aligns with the experiences that you are talking about. But that's what we're looking to do is just to help people understand that, yes, it's good to have your strategy. It's good to have a sense of your key messages. But you need to keep your audience requirements in mind when you're coming up with that strategy and those key messages.
Cruce Saunders
Got it. So the parameters are going to be not pixel perfect, you know, kinds of things as much as guidelines that allow for the individual producers to create, you know, towards a common set of experiences, I assume voice and tone, brand and potentially user journey, what other kinds of guidelines are part of the standards?
Joyce Peralta
So we have nine standards in total. It's one of the shortest lists. There's other similar resources that were produced by governments and other universities, but ours is nine. It starts with being user -focused. There's a reason why that's number one. I think, I don't know about you, but I know when I first started building websites, we used to sit down as a team at a table and we used to think, what should go on our website? You what do we want to tell people about? What should our menu look like? And I feel like that, you know, is still the way some people think about creating a website. So being user focused for us is educating our community on the understanding that you shouldn't be making those assumptions. You should be going directly to your audience and asking them what their requirements are, how they would expect to be able to navigate your website, what's going to resonate with them in terms of what information that they're looking for. So being user -focused is a big one. Making decisions with data is another standard that we have. Being accessible, being thorough in your process. Collaborate and share is another one, one that I really like. Less is more. Protect websites and users' data is another one think that's the nine of them in total. But they're on our website. If you go to our web services site, mcgill .ca slash web dash services, you can access the digital standards right off the homepage.
Cruce Saunders
That's great. Yeah. So it's also published broadly and that's a way to help bring everybody in. You mentioned training. I'm curious what kind of training programs you implemented.
Joyce Peralta
So we have of course training programs based on our tools. So an introduction course for editing using our CMS and then managing sites using our CMS. But we also have a bunch of content related training that is also mandatory. So an introduction to our digital standards is a course that everybody who works on our websites needs to take. And that's within their arrival of when they arrive at our university and are getting initially trained on the system. We also make them take a writing for the web course. And we just made our designing great experiences course mandatory as well. So those three have to be completed by everybody who gains access to our system. And then we have some non -mandatory training courses. We have an SEO course. We have an accessibility course. We have a UX, a user experience course.
So yeah, those are the current training offerings that we have. And we also do a lot of a one -off type special info sessions if there's topics that our community is interested in. And we have big community events that we host twice a year. We do an end of year kind of retrospective on all the changes that were introduced over the past year in terms of changes to our standards and new tools and resources that we released. And then in the middle of the year, this year, we started doing a conference for our community. So it's like a full day of special topics that our community members might be interested in discussing.
Cruce Saunders
Team is amazing. That's a lot to facilitate. mean, that's a whole training department and an events group. you've got a lot of hats. But it's really great because it keeps everybody plugged in in a very different way. It's not passive at all. The community of practice, how do you facilitate those rhythms? Are there regular weekly meetings within groups? Or how does it work?
Joyce Peralta
Yeah. So we have those, all the events we started that I just mentioned, the training, we have a monthly kind of lunch and learn type event, and we do a bunch of different info sessions and make appearances at other drop -in groups that exist, other meetup groups that exist at the university. And it is a lot of effort that we put into these experiences, but on the other side, it's because we are hoping that as many people in our community as possible can self -serve and be independent in the creation of their websites, that we can trust that when they build their sites that they're going to be in alignment with what we are outlining as best practices and standards. And that way we don't have to handhold so many people through their projects because we have too small a team to be able to help everybody in our community. So we need to make sure that the majority of people in our community are able to just move forward on their own without our input.
Cruce Saunders
Yeah, this is like the heartbeat of
content operations is a shared culture and set of processes and frameworks. And to create unity, there's got to be some coherent way of communicating. And you've really cracked the code on getting that heartbeat functioning. I don't know how visible it is. In many organizations, the content teams are often unrenowned, you know, what are the metrics or outcomes you've been able to collect to help to demonstrate the value of
content operations to senior leadership?
Joyce Peralta
Yeah. I think one of the biggest ways that we've been able to convince people of our expertise and get them interested in working with us and listening to our messages is through the user experience type exercises that we initiate or participate in when we're helping people with their projects. So they allow us to not only be part of the development process of different applications and services, but they also allow people to understand the value of knowing what their user needs are and how their users will respond to whatever new tool they're developing or whatever new website that they're creating, that they're gonna be able to launch a new site or a new service and it's going to be effective right off the get -go. They're not going to waste time going in an incorrect direction or building something that isn't going to be used, that right from the get -go, if they follow a thorough user experience or user research process and they work with us to do that, that they are going to have a tool or an application that can hit the ground running and be effective for their audience members. So I think that that's a big one and there's other examples of how we've been able to improve usability as well. think accessibility is another area where we've had a lot of success or a department that supports students with disabilities in our community has come back to us multiple times to say that they can't remember the last time they received a report of a student that was having difficulty accessing one of our sites.
And they have credited us with being instrumental in making that happen. So this type of feedback where people in our community are experiencing less barriers, that they're responding better to services, that the projects are more, I think, efficient because they don't have to deal with an initial launch that is problematic. I think that all these things help stakeholders in our community understand the importance of the best practices that we out.
Cruce Saunders
Yeah, I mean, it's really clear to me that your team is helping to facilitate the value of content assets investments. like it's instead of the content being done willy nilly in a lot of different directions and not being able to drive, you know, common experience of students and faculty and staff and larger stakeholder groups. It's like you're creating an environment by which content is deployed in the most strategically aligned way, efficiently, effectively, with an impact to all these stakeholders' experiences while making it move faster. So it's improving velocity and impact and durability of the content assets, as well as effectiveness, strategic effectiveness of all of these investments that, you know, when you're paying for 1,500 people to maintain content out there, like it's getting those people to sing against a common playbook and be able to effectively create experiences together. So you're really activating the entire value of that portfolio of human capital as well as the content capital. I am impressed.
Joyce Peralta
I mean, it's not a perfect scenario. There's a lot of area, I think, where we have room for improvement. I think in terms of having that unified voice, our institution is still very siloed. A lot of institutions are. And I think we're making a lot of progress recently with that in the journey mapping projects that we're doing because we're helping different departments understand, better understand how
they work together to support a single user journey. So those things are still siloed. For example, for our student audience, when they're completing certain tasks, like for a student registering for courses or identifying what program they want to enroll in, they have to navigate sometimes five or more different web properties that are managed by different teams.
Historically, perhaps those teams have not communicated together or not necessarily collaborated together to produce the content that a student will navigate through in ideally a seamless way, but it isn't always seamless. So we're working to improve those kinds of things, those kinds of experiences.
Cruce Saunders
Well that's fair.
Joyce Peralta
I think we have made a lot of progress in certain areas, but there are areas that we could make more progress in or need to make more progress in.
Cruce Saunders
It's good to have the vision on that. Do you think in terms of funding and resources that
content operations at McGill is already at this optimal level of support? Or are there areas where additional investment, resources, staffing, technology could significantly enhance the capabilities of the content ecosystem?
Joyce Peralta
I mean, I think we could always use more. There's this area that I was just speaking about where we're trying to come up with, I think, providing more cohesive experiences for our audience members. But I know one area where we're currently seeing the need for a lot more resources is McGill is located in Montreal, which is in Quebec, which is Canada's only French speaking province. French is our official language, but we're an Anglophone university. So we have content that's mainly produced in English right now. then some of it's translated to French. But we need to consider more carefully the needs of our Francophone audience. And I like to think that , but what it means to serve a bilingual audience. It doesn't always translate totally to you create it in one language and you translate it to another language. There's different needs and requirements of those audiences and how do we best serve those audiences in a way that makes sense in terms of what language we should be producing content in.
So yeah, I think we could definitely use more resources in that department. I don't know, I just think there's always room for more.
Cruce Saunders
Okay, great. Yeah, there's a lot of frontiers to keep moving forward. I'm curious how you see the content ecosystem at McGill evolving in the future. You know, there's a lot of talk about AI and generative and there's, you know, always innovation happening in the market. And I'm just curious what you're seeing in terms of the evolution of content at McGill over the next coming years.
Joyce Peralta
Well, I feel like, you know, in terms of all those things that we have to tackle and, you know, all the ways that we could potentially grow, I think there's a lot of potential for AI to make those processes more efficient and make it easier for us to handle a larger capacity in terms of things that we do. For example, I think there's great opportunity for improvement. I'm experimenting a lot lately in using AI for our user experience exercises and processing data and our user experiences and user experience exercises. We also use it for tools or content that we know people currently don't maybe have enough time to be able to do effectively like producing
metadata for websites or creating alt text for images. So yeah, there's a lot of room, I think, in terms of efficiency there, but we also need to consider all of the different concerns and considerations that are gonna come along with using AI to generate content. And I do feel like in that sense, we're a little bit lucky because we have an existing content governance structure and we have existing content standards. And when I look at those standards, it's not like we're gonna need to reinvent the wheel here. I feel like It needs to be accessible and inclusive. We need to consider privacy and security. People need to be thorough in their process in terms of editing and evaluating their content. So what we did recently was we added a little disclaimer to the landing page of our digital standards just to remind people that our standards apply to all of our content, even content that's generated with Gen AI. And we're going through our standards to think carefully about what are some things that we need to consider for each of our individual standards, like in areas related to accessibility and inclusion or areas related to privacy and security that are extra things we need to consider because people are creating content using Gen AI So yeah, a lot of opportunity there, but also I think a moment for us to reconsider how our standards are gonna be impacted by people using Gen AI And also to consider, I thought it was really interesting at CMS Connect, I think it was Dries Bightard that mentioned, you know, when all these changes and new developments in technology, we shouldn't just focus on what's going to be different, but we should think about what's going to stay the same. And I think that idea of, you know, thinking about content from a perspective, from a more holistic perspective than just looking at it as gen AI content is one of those ways that we can think about how it's going to stay the same. I don't want to think that we would create a separate set of guidelines just for Gen AI because I feel like that kind of suggests that that's the only way we're going to create content. I want us to also have an understanding of how to generate content from scratch, that there should be an understanding of when it's appropriate to use Gen AI and when it's appropriate maybe to generate new content and to do that we need just a set of content governance standards. So yeah.
Cruce Saunders
OK, beautiful. There's definitely some big challenges for governance teams, for orchestration teams with AI as operations of content start to involve more and more touch points with GenAI and also agents that are helping to facilitate things. You've got all of these, you know, processes that are involved. You know, here's somebody submitting something, here's a set of guidelines, are we adhering to the guidelines? Okay, we need to go back and forth in order to make sure that those start to comply, make suggestions. Maybe there's agents helping to facilitate some of those
content operations and whatnot. Can you see something like that involved?
Joyce Peralta
Well, we are putting in place a web registry right now that will help us track alignment with our standards on our different sites and applications and services. But we, again, don't have the capacity to evaluate all of our different properties. what we're hoping to do right now, I mentioned we have a user access guidelines form that people are initially asked to fill out when they gain access to our systems. What we're planning to do right now is have that be a yearly activity that our site owners have to participate in, where they confirm on a yearly basis that they are aligning, that their sites are aligning with the standards that we outline. So there's that reminder.
And if there is a problem that's reported, then we have that issue for dealing with compliance standards. So if somebody, for example, encounters a problem on a site where they're unable to use it or there's an accessibility issue, if there's a privacy or security issue, then they report it, then we'll initiate that process for dealing with compliance challenges.
Cruce Saunders
Okay, great, interesting. Yeah, so just to wrap up, I've learned so much in our conversation and I know our audience as well. I'm very curious for your reflections on the getting started stage of this, because you've been there now a full cycle and you're in a maintenance management and optimization stage. There's a lot of organizations that are, they've bought the technology, they've done the upgrade, they've, they've got the websites. They've got all big mess. And there's content folks in these organizations that see the mess. They see the challenge. They know some of the things that need to be done, but they're struggling with how do I get started down the path of getting this turned into something that is a collective shared effort?
That they don't have to carry everything and work 18 hour days to get everybody moving, right? It's like, okay, well, what is it that is doable for the average content leader human in terms of helping to move towards
content services organization, a community of practice? And eventually governance and orchestration framework that's sustainable. Where should people start looking around and get started?
Joyce Peralta
I think the key thing for us was that we started with the definition of what makes a good website. And I know when we are working in an environment and we're involved in the industry of producing sites, I feel like there's always this assumption that we're all on the same page in terms of understanding what makes a good website. What are the standards? What are our priorities in terms of what we're trying to achieve? Not just in the content service that we're providing, but in the tools that support that service and the governance structure, what are her standards? And I think making that exercise a community effort will help everybody buy into working together to create a strong, mature governance framework, a content governance framework.
And we'll also kind of help get rid of, I think before we had a defined set of standards, there was a little bit of, I think, uncertainty about motivations and people's agendas that came along with us being maybe vague or ambiguous about what we thought our best practices was. So it'll help kind of get rid of any lingering trust issues there might be between your content providers. Or your content support folks and people that work in departments that support the tool and the governance structure. So yeah, that's my main, I think, recommendation is to start by just defining what are the areas that are most important in terms of your standards and to really define them, not just to say, they have to be accessible, they have to be inclusive. What does that mean to you? What is important about them being accessible? What is important about them being accessible or inclusive? What are your main concerns with privacy and security? And come to a shared understanding of what each of those things means.
Cruce Saunders
Amazing. Well, thank you for including the resources to McGill's standards. I think that that's a great starting point. Do people understand kind of what that looks like and how you break it down into the specific part? And, you know, it's really wonderful of you to take your time to share with other content leaders, you know, at the the speaking you're doing makes a difference. And I certainly encourage you to do more and publish. Some of this maybe with your colleagues, you know, because it's really, it really helps the state of the art for folks who are dealing with the complexity of change to just know there's a team that's done it and it wasn't easy, but we did it. We took, we did the steps and here's what they were. And it's really, really helpful to everybody. So thank you, Joyce, very much. I appreciate it.
Joyce Peralta
Thanks, Cruce. I really appreciated being able to talk to you today, too. So thanks for inviting me to come be part of your broadcast.
Cruce Saunders
I know a lot of people will be very keen to find out what's next for Joyce and I appreciate your time and I know everybody will enjoy this episode. Have a great day. Bye.
Joyce Peralta
Thanks, Cruce. Bye.